you have to get out of here your vagina is haunted ([info]musesfool) wrote,
@ 2003-04-14 13:11:00
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Current mood: curious
Current music:Sunshine of Your Love - Cream

more, more, more
What's with the not entertaining me by updating copiously this morning? Huh?

::pokes friends list::

Don't make me get out the scary poky stick!

I'm desperately trying to finish Nothing Like the Sun (I'm sure you're sick of hearing about it, so imagine how sick I am of trying to finish it, even though I love it to bits, when it's not making me tear my hair out) while also packaging and sending out annual reports to trustees. Ooh, big fun!

So, last week, Halrloprillalar discussed the finer points of drabble writing, and the subject of sequels came up - as in, in response to a drabble, someone wrote, "Hey, I'd like to see more of this story. What happens next?"

And how, as writers, most of us tend to think, "Well, if there was more story there, I'd have written a longer story and not a drabble."

And honestly, in the two and a half years I've been writing fanfic and paying attention to other writers' thoughts on the subject, one thing seems to be clear - Many fan writers dislike it when their readers demand sequels.

Some writers acquiesce, and if "the muse" or inspiration or whatever is with them, the sequel stands up to the original. If not, well... we've all seen (or avoided like the plague) Speed 2 and its ilk, yes?

I mean, speaking for myself, if something someone says in an email sparks another idea in my mind, then yeah, I may write a sequel. Or if I knew the story I wanted to tell was incomplete, but I wanted to tell it in self-contained installments rather than as one long WIP, or the second half of the story didn't seem to fit with the first, so splitting it made sense (and then the second half, if you're me, has been left to wither on the shelf, because I'm a bear of very little attention span...), I'll write a sequel. A whole series of 'em, on occasion.

But usually, when I say "The End" I mean, "The End", and so do many fan writers of my acquaintance (I wouldn't presume to know the minds of published writers, but some of the sequels I've read lead me to believe that they're under more pressure to produce more of the same from their publishers, as people like the same old, same old - it's comfortable and it sells).

And getting emails saying, "But what happens next?" or "When are you writing the sequel?" in response to stories that to you (generic writer) seem complete and whole can be really fricking annoying. (Whether because you want to write a sequel and can't think of what actually happens next or whether you're really and truly done and want to move on. Both have happened to me.)

And yet, as writers of fanfiction, isn't that exactly what we're doing?

For example:

Firefly was cancelled. There will never be more episodes of it (at least in serialized television format). But we want to know what happens next. Who is Book? Who are the blue hand guys? Will Simon and Kaylee ever get together? Will Jayne get spaced the next time he crosses Mal? etc. etc.

What do we do?

Well, some people write to the network(s) and beg for the show to be picked up. Most people in this fannish community then turn around and write fanfic.

::thinks::

Okay, Firefly is a bad example, 'cause it was cut down in medias res.

Better example:

Lord of the Rings. It's finished, bubeleh. Sure, there's another movie coming out, and some things might be different than in the books, but the footprint of the story? The major plot points? The *ending*?

All she wrote. (or, in this case, he wrote.)

Boromir's not coming back. Eowyn isn't going to win Aragorn's love, Merry and Pippin aren't going to settle down in wedded bliss with each other, and Theoden isn't going to survive the Pelennor. Etc. Etc.

And yet, not only do we, as fan writers, rewrite the stories (What if Frodo kept the Ring? What if Galadriel took it when offered? What if Aragorn and Eowyn had a brief illicit affair that resulted in a baby?), we add on stuff that's not included (What did Sam do all those years as Mayor of Hobbiton? What were Legolas and Gimli up to in Ithilien? Was Faramir and Eowyn's marriage happy? How did Eldarion feel having to wait so long to become King? How did Eomer feel about being king? Who the hell is Lothiriel and how did she and Eomer meet and fall in love?)..

We're doing to the source texts, in essence, what other fans want us to do to our own writing.

And we get shirty about it sometimes when asked to do it to our own stories.

I just find that really interesting, how fannish entitlement extends to expanding on someone else's caged baby universe(tm Warren Ellis, whom I dislike intensely) and how, as readers of fanfic, we may be the ones *sending* the email, "Ooh, I'd really like to see what happens next? Are you gonna write a sequel?" but in the role of *writer*, we may be irritated by such requests ("Don't you know 'The End' means The End?")

I know I have this split in myself, and I'm wondering if anyone else who is both a producer and a consumer of fanfic, has noticed this.

And if you have (either before or just now when I mentioned it, whichever), what do you think about it?

C'mon be honest.

And people who just read, what do *you* think of it? Are you irritated when a writer says, "Look, I told the story I wanted to tell and that's it. There *isn't* anything else. They all die!" (except, you know, somewhat more cordially).



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Extended cleaning metaphor
[info]zvi_likes_tv
2003-04-14 10:19 am UTC (link)
My philosophy on shared living is, for things which are not actively gross or actively impeding people's use of common space and which are not part of a previously agreed upon split in house maintenance activities (I think in extended clauses, sorry), the person who is bothered by something will clean it up. Which means that they get what they want (It's clean!) and the other person, who thought their time was more valuable than the cleanliness of object X, get's what they want (free time!).

And I think this issue is in some ways like that. When fanwriters keep writing about something, they do the work of making the next part. It bothers them so much that there is story untold that they get off their duffs and tell it. When fans write to authors (pro or fan) and demand sequels, they're trying to get the author to do all the work. And when the author feels like there's story left untold and they want to tell that story, that's one thing and it can feel like encouragement. But if they're through, they look at sequel-demanders like the neurotic roommate who insists that there be three backup bags in a trashcan at all times. It's more work than they want to give to something they don't actually want to do.

Or at least, that's my take on it.

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Re: Extended cleaning metaphor
[info]zvi_likes_tv
2003-04-14 10:23 am UTC (link)
Oh, and while we're on the subject of demanding things for which we haven't worked

How're the remix stories coming along? Are they going to come out on time? If you need help, I can probably help some tonight.

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Re: Extended cleaning metaphor
[info]musesfool
2003-04-14 10:32 am UTC (link)
They are not going to come out on time, as I am still missing... ::checks list:: 10 stories.

Emails threatening public humiliation tomorrow have been sent out. And one came back as invalid. Sigh. I think I'll be writing a second remix tonight.

But thanks for the offer. *g*

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Re: Extended cleaning metaphor
[info]zvi_likes_tv
2003-04-14 10:44 am UTC (link)
If you've got people who bail on people in my fandoms, let me know. I respond well to pressure.

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Re: Extended cleaning metaphor
[info]minim_calibre
2003-04-14 10:59 am UTC (link)
What she said.

(As I go back to finding anything to do that isn't cleaning my house.)

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Re: Extended cleaning metaphor
[info]eilandesq
2003-04-15 02:20 am UTC (link)
"If you've got people who bail on people in my fandoms, let me know. I respond well to pressure."

I'd be willing to give it a shot too, if you need it. My writer's block seems to have departed for the moment.

Of course, I don't need to be threatened with public humiliation to produce. I've got my love life to lean on for that. ;-)



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Re: Extended cleaning metaphor
[info]musesfool
2003-04-15 08:11 am UTC (link)
Thanks, Scott.

If anyone else bails, I'll give you a shout. *g*

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Re: Extended cleaning metaphor
[info]musesfool
2003-04-15 08:11 am UTC (link)
Thanks, ma'am.

I will call on you if the need arises. *g*

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[info]kattahj
2003-04-14 10:26 am UTC (link)
I rarely ever react negatively when people ask me for a sequel. I don't write them, with few exceptions, but I'm well aware that I nearly always end my stories in ways that allow for more questions to be asked. I enjoy it that way, like to keep my readers thinking. But apparently, some readers don't want to think, or they'd be writers instead.

(In one very interesting case a reader wrote to me with ideas for a Good Intentions trequel, and she said "this is what I have in mind." I suggested that she write it instead, since she knew what she wanted. As far as I know, she never took me up on the offer.)

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Sequels
[info]netninny
2003-04-14 10:32 am UTC (link)
I just find that really interesting, how fannish entitlement extends to expanding on someone else's caged baby universe [snip] and how, as readers of fanfic, we may be the ones *sending* the email, "Ooh, I'd really like to see what happens next? Are yo u gonna write a sequel?" but in the role of *writer*, we may be irritated by such requests ("Don't you know 'The End' means The End?").

I don't think there's necessarily a contradiction there. The parallel to, say, my writing fanfic about the LotR un iverse, would be another fanfic author's penning a sequel to a story I had written and considered finished--and I certainly wouldn't begrudge her the right to do so, as long as she included the usual disclaimers.

I'm one of the people who raised this is sue, so I should probably clarify: if someone wants to read more than I've written, I do consider that a compliment--and if they *demand* more, I assume they're just hyperbolizing for comic effect. I don't consider such requests rude; they just leave me feeling a little rueful over not being able to comply.

*?

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[info]corinna_5
2003-04-14 10:46 am UTC (link)
I think there are a couple of things at play here.

1. A really good story stays with you, walks around in your head, asks all sorts of "what if" questions on its own. Hence the whole fanfic urge in the first place, as you note. SV stories that have stayed with me this way include Kitty Fisher's "Freak" and Lenore's "Seduction" sequel. And while I discussed in the comments to Lenore's original rough-draft post of that story writing a related what-if sort of story, in general writing fanfic of fanfic seems, weirdly, frowned upon. (Not that that's what stopped me from writing the what-if story, just that other less angst-ridden things demanded my attention.) So that's part of the disconnect right there, I think: people want more but don't feel it's their place to write it. Or feel like, given that the original creator is *right there*, as opposed to off in some Hollywood lot, that they'd do a better job with it anyhow.

2. So many people *do* write sequels that it's an understandable potential outcome. And once the "I hope there's a sequel!" thing comes up as a potential shorthand for "I found this evocative, it raised questions for me, its world was very real to me" ...well, it *is* a shorthand, after all.

The stories people have most asked for sequels of in my work included one that was post Angel S3 (um, watch 4.1...), and one that I thought of as bridging SV and DC canon. In those cases there is a certain open-endedness to the finishes, and I think the readers did sense that the story could open out into a larger world. Since that was part of my intent, I can't complain that they wanted sequels. Similarly, the only story I've ever asked the writer for a sequel of is "Demarcation," because the ending is both so joyous and so pulling-the-rug-out-from-under-you that you can't help but wonder what does come next.

I am actually *writing* a sequel right now, which was partially inspired by reader feedback that they'd love to see more of that future, partially by my own continuing to dwell in that world (which usually happens to me post-story, but which lasted longer than usual this time) and partially by my getting an idea for a good, hopefully dramatic, story with these characters. I am toying with a third in the series to round things out, but if I can't find the plot arc as well as the emotional one, I won't write it.

Also, what [info]zvi_likes_tv said about Remix help. I've got time on my hands.

And also also -- Sethos has a house in Cornwall? I love me some thirty-year-old continuity points. (on page 49 now...)

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[info]debc
2003-04-14 10:52 am UTC (link)
And how, as writers, most of us tend to think, "Well, if there was more story there, I'd have written a longer story and not a drabble."

You nailed it. I write a lot of 1-part stories, and not matter how long or short they are, I always here (especially on FF.net) a certain amount of "are you continuing this?" in the comments.

And I always walk away torn--on one hand, happy that they liked it and on the other, confused because they clearly didn't "get" the air finality I hoped to convey at the end and I have to wonder why?

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[info]naomichana
2003-04-14 11:29 am UTC (link)
*shrug* I haven't gotten the sequel question often, and once or twice there was an element of "Duh. I just killed off the perspective character. No," but my overwhelming response is to appreciate that someone wants to keep living in my corner of the multiverse. I don't feel obliged to write a sequel, just as I didn't feel obliged to write in the first place (uh, as a rule). It's a nice compliment, that's all.

As a reader, I don't ask for sequels, although I cheer wildly when they are mentioned in people's LJs.

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[info]dreagoddess
2003-04-14 11:31 am UTC (link)
I don't get upset at sequel requests, because I seem them mostly as an indication that the story was good enough that they'd WANT to read more. And in at least three instances, people asking me, "What happens next?" or "Are you going to do a sequel?" directly resulted in me writing a sequel. (Well, two writing a sequel I wasn't planning on, the third writing a sequel from a different angle than I'd originally thought.)

Also, different people have different ideas of what's "complete". I recall reading one fic that I finished and honestly thought there was another chapter coming. The last line was something like "one down, four to go", and I wrote feedback begging for the next chapter to come out soon. The author's response was, "What? It IS finished. It ended with x and y, do you really need me to spell out z?" We still conflict over that. *g* But some things that I see as complete in and of themselves, other people might see as needing something else, and something I see as needing something else others might think is complete. To a large degree, it's a matter of taste, and I want to hear about that just as much as I want to hear other comments about my fic.

*sigh* But I still want that sequel she's never going to write. :)

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[info]happyminion
2003-04-14 12:49 pm UTC (link)
One look at my site and you'll see that I do write a lot of sequels. Usually, I write in threes, though. Gives me time to iron out a story arc and lets me play in the universe until I'm bored or the voices shush.

I do get a lot of requests for sequels, as soon as I write a story. Of course it's flattering, but honestly there are times when the story's been told and there's just nothing else to add to it. Those are the times when I'll very politely say thanks for your interest, but their story is told. The Sex & Candy universe is a perfect example. There's just no continuation for the storyline once Adina leaves town. I told that tale in a set of three stories and it's complete. Likewise, A Picture of Home is a stand alone that I'd never dream of touching. It works *only* because it's the perfect moment in their lives that's caught and preserved. Outside that apartment, things change and I like leaving that moment as it is.

So yeah, it does get annoying when you've obviously written a story that's played itself out and still requests are coming in, but I'm always inclined to take it as flattery and respond patiently. Odds are, most stories are going to have a sequel, if my readers are patient enough. *g*

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[info]cimadness
2003-04-14 12:57 pm UTC (link)
The one thing i can think of in defense of the sequel hungry is that drabbles can be written as trailers/teasers/what have you. I did that just now and 1) it was fun and b) if some people would come comment on it, i might be motivated to finish the story </comment whore&rt;

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[info]cupiscent
2003-04-14 04:18 pm UTC (link)
*blink*

God, you are so right. I get utterly annoyed when people pester me to take the story in directions I don't want it to go in.

On the other hand, if anyone was deranged enough to write fanfic of my fanfic, I'd be utterly delighted. I just don't want them to dictate my writing to me.

And, um, I like Warren Ellis. Well, I like his comics. *slinks off*

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[info]prillalar
2003-04-14 06:08 pm UTC (link)
I'm not ticked off when people ask for sequels to longer fic -- though if they keep begging for them after I've said no, well, then I'm annoyed. It's actually quite flattering that someone is absorbed enough by my story to want more. And sometimes, I write the sequels, if I want to.

While I'm not actually annoyed by people who ask for drabble sequels, I'm mystified. Drabbles don't really *lend* themselves to sequels.

People seem to think that I *know* what happens next, only I just don't want to tell them. Only occasionally is this true. *g*

I confess -- I've asked other people for sequels in my time. Sometimes, it actually works.

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Sequels
[info]eilandesq
2003-04-15 02:38 am UTC (link)
I always take a request for a sequel as a compliment, though on occasion I do a bit of head-scratching when I write a story that seemed to me at the time to be obviously intended as a one-shot story (such as "First Impressions", where I had Clark and Lex running into Lois Lane in Smallville, and "Casting Issues", where the crew of the Voyager indulges in a holodeck scenario involving third-season BTVS), only to get insistent demands for a sequel. Occasionally, I see a new angle and oblige the requests (as with "Residual Duties", where the spark between Buffy and Wesley hit a nerve with a number of people, and I saw possibilities for continuing the storyline even as the canon timeline made it less and less plausible), but most of the time I just follow my initial instincts as to what stories are best suited for one-shots.

As for what other writers do: it's their world, I'm just visiting. Of course, I might decide to borrow an isolated glade or two while they're off elsewhere. . .:-)

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Color Me Odd
[info]valentinemichel
2003-04-15 09:22 am UTC (link)
I suppose I've found the sequel requests flattering. The notion gets back to something you've said previously (and I paraphrase): fen want, need, desire fic. More is not enough.

Two fics in particular stand out for me because they were envisioned as larger works. In those cases, the request for sequels were coded requests for a continuation. I'd left questions unanswered and though things had been resolved, there was indeed the possibility of more.

There was also a request to continue a fic I felt was definitely a standalone. The request made me think, hmm, I *could* write this as a series.

Then there are the drabbles and the requests to extend them into full-blown fics.

Now, have I done a sequel, series or extension? No. I've toyed with the notions, but I don't know if it's a combination of inorganic process and insufficient motivation or just pure impossibility that's led to nothing.

Apologies in advance if I'm retracing comment territory. My time these days is certainly *not* my own. ::whimpers::

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[info]violetisblue
2003-04-15 11:25 am UTC (link)
(Vali, posting from the fannish LJ:) I once had someone beg me for a sequel to a particular story, and was so flattered by the very idea that I went out and started one. Suffice to say that this was a mistake somewhere along the lines of the first Hollywood suit to muse aloud, "So, what say you to a Blair Witch Project II?" and leave it at that.

As for drabbles, to my surprise they're proving a nice source for plot points and ideas I might decide were well worth incorporating into a longer story. (Mine, I mean, not someone else's ideas, she noted hastily as we are speaking of HP drabbles here.) Also, she said cynically, it's a fine source of feedback from people who won't bother with your 50,000-word stories but can in fact be arsed to read 100.

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[info]fyrdrakken
2003-04-15 08:01 pm UTC (link)
Ignoring the Ellis-slamming and proceeding directly to the sequel question:

What I found myself thinking of was Arthur Conan Doyle and Sherlock Holmes. The Holmes stories are like the granddaddy of modern-day fandom -- so many fans writing to Doyle to continue the series that he killed off the main character in a fit of pique, gave up and resurrected him after the reader outcry, and responded to a request for permission to use the character in a play that was basically fan-written with, "Marry him, murder him, do what you like with him!" To this day professional writers are still doing Holmes stories (the Laurie King series about Mary Russell had me going, "This chick's middle name has to be Sue, right?") and I just read a new book that's basically RPF about Arthur Conan Doyle and the Dr. Joseph Bell that Holmes is widely considered to be based upon.

The character had such a grip on the fans' imaginations that the writer just couldn't keep up with the demand, and in fact got sick of everyone wanting Holmes and nothing but Holmes from him. Doyle was willing to let people occupy themselves writing their own Holmes stories just to keep from having to do it himself. (Though I doubt he was as enthusiastic about the prospect of reading someone else's take on his character as Gaiman was at getting to read Sandman stories written by other authors.)

Gaiman's attitude, BTW, is probably why people would rather get other authors to write the stories for them -- you already know what you can think up, but it's the stuff other people throw into it that can be new and surprising and intriguing. (Well, a bit of that and probably a lot of laziness as well, in the case of the fan writers.)

It's certainly shorthand for "I loved this story and didn't want it to end!" when they beg for sequels -- and since there's that dichotomy between ficcers who want to polish their craft and ficcers who write as a sort of fannish dialogue between themselves and their fellow fans, a lot of FBers may be thinking they're dealing with the type of author who asks, "Okay, what do you want to see happen next?" or says, "I won't write more unless you FB me!" or "If anyone likes this, there may be a sequel..." You know, someone who'll keep writing as long as people keep giving them attention.

I'm one of those people who generally knows what happens next after "The End" of my own stories but rarely gets around to actually getting much of it actually written down. Sometimes having people nagging me wondering what happens next reminds me to keep thinking on that sequence of events and actually writing it down, but I've never written a sequel on demand when I didn't already have one in mind. I'm flattered by the request, but I'll no more write a story I don't have in mind than I'll alter the pre-planned events of my story to suit random demands that come in with my feedback.

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