.
.
The text on the Harry is too dark, though. It didn't look that dark in PSP. Sigh.
And the first attempt at Reclaiming Movie!Lupin:
.
Bethy says the text on the collar one is too dark, but it seems all right to me. Muted, yes, but easily legible.
Also, he totally has the Brad Whitford thing going on in these pics, which I love. *g*
And
![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif?v=92.2){kind=small}
khakigrrl made this one for me:
***
Speaking of icons, how funny that I finally put my James/Lily into rotation just before his character comes under the fannish microscope this time around.
So, while the original post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek to some degree (or so I've been told), there are certain underlying assumptions in the discussion that really irk me.
To wit:
Harry Potter fandom has factions which will argue that Snape went from Death Eater (where he never ever did anything wrong anyway and his hands are clean and it was James and Sirius's fault he joined them, anyway! <- and that's barely exaggerated from what I've seen some fans argue) to Spy and Hero for the Good Guys, or that Draco, who's never evinced any sign that 1. he thinks his incidental racism is wrong or 2. he wants in any way to change, can become the True Hero of the Potterverse.
Yet many of these same exact fans (and this is where my problem lies) are the ones who argue that James and Sirius are Teh Big EVOL because of their behavior at 15-16, i.e., that they never changed *at all* from the obnoxious berks they were then (and in Sirius's case... well, twelve years in Azkaban will fuck a brother up, is what I'm saying, so whatever maturity he may have gained, and it's arguable, is mostly gone by OotP and being locked up again).
I don't know if you remember 15-16 very well, but nobody comes off well, in retrospect. We're all self-centered pricks to some degree or another as teens, and some are much worse than others. Most of us grow up.
If all we ever are is who we were at 15, the world would be a very sad place indeed.
The "fact" of the matter is (as much as it's canon in the Potterverse, and as such fictional), James and Sirius die protecting people they love. That is not the act of a sociopath or The Big Evol (unless the Big Evol is in the act of redeeming him/herself).
Of course, looking at it from this skewed perspective, Snape never changes either, because he was always Dear, Put-Upon Severus who only became a DE because he was bullied by James and Sirius (and let's not forget his abusive father, though if we do, we have to grant Sirius his abusive mother) and not because he may have actually espoused their genocidal philosophy, or just been interested in power for its own sake.
As far as Lily falling for James v. being forced into it goes, has no one ever had the experience of thinking a guy was cute but obnoxious, and then s/he got to know him and realized he was okay underneath the bluster?
Oh wait, isn't that the plot of, like, every Snape romance fic ever? ;p
I know I've had the experience numerous times, but then I tend to be attracted to obnoxious jerks.
And my boss has just uttered the two most horrible words in the English language: Powerpoint presentation.
Gah.
*AND* he's used my phone.
*gags from the scent of cologne clinging to it.*
*whimper*
- mood:
wry - music:Tiny Dancer - Elton John *loves*
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Comments
Then it depends on whether the icon is for your own personal pleasure or if it's intended to communicate, doesn't it?
Bethy is right. The text *is* too dark to be "easily legible" for many people on many monitors/systems -- not including you, of course, but *many*. and The question is, do you actually care if the icon gives people eyestrain or not? If you're not trying to communicate with it, it doesn't matter.
The wording is exactly right, though. What do those fools mean, "not sexy"? Oh well, it keeps out the riff-raff.
i'm rather glad i'm not seeing whatever discussion you're seeing. have these people read the books?
Of course, looking at it from this skewed perspective, Snape never changes either
and really, he barely does for all we know. we don't know yet in what capacity he won that dark mark, we can only guess. but he's certainly an asshole way beyond the call for it. and i'm spending a lot of time lately thinking about why.
it's also given me time to think up my own theory for james' change in character. which is that when the 'trick' happened, he had a bit of an awakening about what giant asses they were all being. that it was going too far. and then, i figure his thoughts on the matter and sirius' own shame for the stupid-ass thing he did eventually bring sirius around too.
but there is clearly a change for james and sirius, even it we don't know why, when or how. that's why it was surprising and interesting to read that they were such jerks in OotP. duh!
Heh. I should know better than to follow links.
have these people read the books?
Yes. And in some cases, it seems there's an extra one in which Severus Snape is the hero and romantic lead. I haven't read that one, nor do I want to.
we don't know yet in what capacity he won that dark mark, we can only guess.
Right.
I tend to think he went in looking for a system that would give him the power and recognition he craved, and got out when he realized what the DEs were actually about. Much like Regulus, except more successful.
I have a feeling we'll eventually learn more about that.
it's also given me time to think up my own theory for james' change in character. which is that when the 'trick' happened, he had a bit of an awakening about what giant asses they were all being. that it was going too far. and then, i figure his thoughts on the matter and sirius' own shame for the stupid-ass thing he did eventually bring sirius around too.
*nod*
I think that's *clearly* the turning point, for all of them, and the start of whatever breaches there were in the friendship that would eventually lead to Sirius not trusting Remus.
why it was surprising and interesting to read that they were such jerks in OotP. duh!
Well, I wasn't surprised at Sirius being a jerk, but yeah, James was a revelation.
As far as Lily falling for James v. being forced into it goes, has no one ever had the experience of thinking a guy was cute but obnoxious, and then s/he got to know him and realized he was okay underneath the bluster?
Is that where the rape thing came from? That James couldn't possibly have changed at all and Lily therefore was forced into a relationship with him?
You know, I happen to like Snape, for most part, but even I can see where his memories of James, Sirius and Remus are clearly very clouded by what happened between them. Just be because he holds a very big grudge (and it was a nasty hting to do that doesn't mean they didn't change and mature and aren't the same as they were at 15 years old.
Thanks!
And yes, my Remus muse is very naughty. *G*
That James couldn't possibly have changed at all and Lily therefore was forced into a relationship with him?
Yes. Via imperius (which was later discounted as too difficult), or possibly a love potion to soften her up (a storyline I've used myself, to great comic effect) and possibly keep her softened.
I bailed on the discussion when it started going in the 'Snape rules, James drools' direction.
Just be because he holds a very big grudge (and it was a nasty hting to do that doesn't mean they didn't change and mature and aren't the same as they were at 15 years old.
*nod*
I also don't have a problem with Snape hating James, Sirius or Remus.
I have a problem with how he treats Harry and Neville and, to a lesser extent, the other students.
To approach any theory like this honestly you have to start with what you see and think about what that leads to. You don't just make up a storyline to suit a conclusion, like an elaborate story of how James could have done this and this and Harry saw that and Snape thought this, none of which is actually on the page. It all comes down to the fact that you can't prove it isn't true, but the reason you can't prove it isn't true is because it's an unfalsified premise to begin with. Any evidence against it will be dismissed by making up yet another twist in the ever-changing story. Sorry, but this drives me freakin' nuts.
And it is kind of related to what you're saying, luckily.:-) It seems to me these books actually like showing us bits of people at one point in their life, and then at another point, or showing us how someone is with one person, contrasted by how they are with another. It seems to enjoy the fact that people are confusing, that a bully can also be a victim, and an ordinary person have an interesting backstory, that the coldest person can feel warmth towards somebody else. Yet for everything like that put in it seems like there are people running around with irons flattening out all the wrinkles, because it's upsetting to think that the person you like wasn't always the victim or could be honestly described as a jerk by a character you don't like.
I mean, for me it's not even a question of James being a jerk at 15 and growing out of it, it's that his personality has the potential for good and bad. The same thing that made 20-something James heroic made 15-year-old James a jerk to Snape. It's the same guy--we're not even talking about some massive change. A change of heart, a maturing, sure, but he's clearly the same person, just as Snape could be an angry teenager shouting along with Death Eaters and now be a bitter Potions teacher. The victimized Snape who was never really a Death Eater has even less in common with the guy we know in canon than his previous teenaged self.
So yeah, it bugs me. I guess it should be especially silly when people are turning the Slytherins into heroes while villifying the Marauders, but really I don't even know if the way of looking at things is that different from people who like the Slytherins being the evil ones.
I quite agree. And that's exactly what I did -- looked at the books carefully, and thought about the information they provided and the possible implications. The fact that I came to a different conclusion than you and the others here, or at least ended up speculating in a different direction than you feel personally comfortable with, does not mean that I am either bigoted, ignorant of the books, or an idiot.
Please note that in spite of my essay's tongue-in-cheek title ("James Potter Is Ever So Evil"), the whole thing is speculation and billed as such. My point was not that OMG JAMES PUT LILY UNDER IMPERIUS THE EVAL FEIND, only that in my opinion there are canonical suggestions that he might have done so, and that if he did, it would explain a number of things I've been wondering about.
Please also note that in spite of the seemingly radical position I took in the essay, I readily invited feedback and told people they were free to build up the theory or tear it down as they saw fit. Which they have done, resulting in a great deal of interesting and enjoyable discussion.
And finally please note that in the comments section to that post, I modified and adapted the theory, indeed softened it significantly, in response to other people's arguments and observations. So I hope you can forgive me for being irritated at seeing my viewpoint misrepresented as OMG JAMES WAS SO EVAL HES LIKE HITLER OR SUMTHING & SNAPE IS MY PERFEKT ANGEL 4EVA!!!!
My point is not, as a lot of people seem to have imagined, that people who are idiots at fifteen can't and don't change significantly given time. My point is that if people DO change in a significant way, one ought to expect their best friends to give them full and fair credit for it. And as far as I can see, Remus and Sirius simply don't give James that credit -- all they can tell Harry is that he improved "a bit" and stopped hexing people indiscriminately. If even Harry finds that answer less than reassuring, why shouldn't I?
Rant over.
Powerpoint presentation.
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Heh. I try.
Powerpoint presentation.
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know you feel my pain. *g*
I could prove anything this way. I'm gonna take some data, and twist it around while willingly ignore every piece of canon information that contradicts it.
Also what kills me is the total unsublety of some readers, like there can never be half measures or shades of gray. Blind bias and political textual analisys also kills me. I am a Draco fan. I am glad you wrote this piece:
Draco, who's never evinced any sign that 1. he thinks his incidental racism is wrong or 2. he wants in any way to change, can become the True Hero of the Potterverse.
because it's a story that's getting old, that as soon as a character is loved, then he has to become a hero, or get the moral highground. Can't he be just a nasty boy with issues who at some point realises he doesn't have all the information?
Though I feel white-washing (and blindness to the "other side"'s possible complexity or at least perspective) isn't just a problem of the Slytherin fans. I've heard Trio fans talk the same way about Draco (an evil rapist in the making apparently), and I've heard Marauder fans trying to justify Sirius&James's behaviour in the Pensieve scene with the much typical and much depressing "Well, he deserved it". Can't we all take a deep breath and realise humanity is just that? A mixture of good and bad sides? Our favourite characters don't necessarily have to win.
Not at all. I just happen to run into it more frequently in the older generation because that's who I'm mostly concerned with as a fan.
I've heard Marauder fans trying to justify Sirius&James's behaviour in the Pensieve scene with the much typical and much depressing "Well, he deserved it".
It doesn't surprise me, though I haven't seen it myself.
Can't we all take a deep breath and realise humanity is just that? A mixture of good and bad sides? Our favourite characters don't necessarily have to win.
Sure, that's what I'd like.
What I dislike is when folks tear down one character to build up another and use a double standard to do so, which is quite the fannish pastime.
I have no doubt Snape sees himself as the victim in his schoolboy interactions with MWPP. I have no doubt that Draco feels himself unfairly persecuted by Harry & Co. That's the funny thing about subjective perception, it tends to skew your interpretation of events. I think Remus and Sirius didn't dismiss Harry's fears with a, "That's not how it was," because I think they thought that went without saying. Dumbledore tells Harry a Pensieve can be good for examining your thoughts and gaining a different perspective, which implies to me that those thoughts are indeed biased when they first go in there. Of course, I also think that in the scene in the book where Snape is discussing Sirius with Dumbledore and says something along the lines of, "You haven't forgotten he tried to kill me, right?" and Dumbledore says something along the lines of, "I've forgotten nothing," Dumbledore wasn't just callously dismissing the value of Snape's life. I think he was warning Snape that he hadn't forgotten Snape's own teenage behavior, either, and was not above reminding Snape of it if necessary.
And I digress, but I'm getting so tired of seeing MWPP vilified just to make Snape look good. He is what he is. Like it, love it, hate it, but stop trying to whitewash it, especially by throwing mud on other characters. Particularly other characters who were not Death Eaters, and do not continue to show signs of latent racism and power hunger.
While the "James is evil" part of the debate irked me, though, what really infuriated me was how the writer then went on to use her theory as justification for Snape's inexcusable behavior toward his students. He hates and belittles Harry because Harry is not "the true child of prophecy." He terrorizes and bullies Neville because Neville is that child, and he's "frustrated" that Neville isn't manifesting any of his supposed power. While I can see Snape thinking that, and behaving accordingly, I never thought to see someone actually try to defend him for it. I mean, we're all too happy to cast stones at Dumbledore for theoretically using people in such a fashion. Is it worse because he does it with a kindly word and a smile, instead of a scowl and insult like Snape? I have my doubts.
what really infuriated me was how the writer then went on to use her theory as justification for Snape's inexcusable behavior toward his students. He hates and belittles Harry because Harry is not "the true child of prophecy." He terrorizes and bullies Neville because Neville is that child, and he's "frustrated" that Neville isn't manifesting any of his supposed power.
Okay, I totally missed that, and um, I'm kinda glad I did, because no. Just. No.
The things people will do to defend Snape amaze and baffle me.
*shakes head*
He's not even as attractive or amusing as Spike, for whom I could see one letting hormones cloud one's judgement, and who also was often the benefactor of much fanwanking away of his behavior.
So no. None of his behavior toward Neville is warranted or justifiable. NONE. And nothing anyone can say will make me believe that it is, unbtil such time as it is revealed that Neville Longbottom killed Snape's mother and stole his wife and money and basically visited the plagues of Egypt upon him.
I've come to the conclusion that most fans will prefer the attractively evil to the hero any day. The hero, properly handled, makes you feel like you should be trying to make yourself better than you are; he espouses a code that the story suggests is worth living up to. If you don't really make that sort of effort in your own life, the hero, then, can feel like a unspoken critique of your own approach to life. Most people just don't like to think about such things, because trying to do the right thing--heck, even trying to figure out what the right thing *is*--is so often hard, unpleasant work. The attractive villain, on the other hand, says you can wallow in your own crapulence, but as long as you can be cute, you'll be all right. That's a lot easier to swallow.
My basic feeling is that everyone is responsible for their own actions. Yes, James and Sirius were jerks at fifteen, but I would say they MORE than paid for it in a karmic sense. The fact that they went to their horrible fates gladly and without hesitation is and should be the final statement about them: they were definite heroes.
And just because Snape was bullied at fifteen doesn't absolve him for responsibilty for his own actions. It was his decision to seek out the Deatheaters and get a Mark on his arm, and no amount of "poor me"-ing will take away that one basic fact. It was his choice to perform the reprehensible action of becoming a Deatheater, and it is taking away from his integrity as an independent character to claim that he was too weak-willed to make his own decisions. If you are going to say that, then you need to similarly say that leaving the Deatheaters wasn't his own choice either... which would rob Snape of the heroism that is absolutely his.
On a similar vein, Snape's decision to visit the sins of the father upon Harry is his own, and there is absolutely NO justification for the shameful way he treats Neville. The fact that Snape can be simultaneously heroic and horrible is what makes him fascinating; to take one away is to leave behind a shallow character that is nothing like what JKR wrote.
Um, I kinda made those icons for me, not for sharing.
The fact that Snape can be simultaneously heroic and horrible is what makes him fascinating; to take one away is to leave behind a shallow character that is nothing like what JKR wrote.
Yes. Exactly.
I don't like Snape as a *person* (inasmuch as one likes or dislikes fictional characters as people), but as a character I find him completely fascinating.
Rejecting every other bit of information we have about James simply because, yes, he was as ass to Snape, strikes me as a poor characterization choice. We already knew that about him, but somehow before OotP, people also remembered that he sacrificed his life for his wife and son, undertook a very risky process to keep a friend company, stopped Sirius from killing Snape, and is remembered well by everyone except Snape, even when they don't realize that Harry is listening. (Well, and the Dursleys. It's true that the Dursleys don't think much of him.) Ignoring all of that in favor of a memory from someone whose view is very narrow (and very self-centered) isn't a good place to start understanding the character.
Yes. Admittedly, I was surprised at James, but Sirius I *knew* was going to be an obnoxious asshole with a mean streak, because of his completely unrepentant attitude about the Trick.
Ignoring all of that in favor of a memory from someone whose view is very narrow (and very self-centered) isn't a good place to start understanding the character.
I agree.
And as for the rant... yes. All kinds of yes.
Reminds me of moments in my own fandom when I run into "OMGtherevolutionarystudentsareTERRORIST
Heh. That's an icon-worthy phrase.
I know I've said this before, but... Everyone (Yes, even you over there, so stop trying to hide.) was, to a greater or lesser extent, an asshole in some way as a teenager. Popular, misfit, rich, poor, whatever -- you probably had your asshole moments. That doesn't excuse bad behavior or keep it from having consequences, but it does place it into context. I always wonder about those sort of sweeping judgments of fictional characters, because we've all done bad things or hurt other people intentionally. And if you tell me you haven't, I won't believe you. Sorry. ^_-
Within the context of the story, though... I think the disconnect with some interpretations of these characters, and this is just a theory, has to do with the fact that many fans believe that Snape, Sirius, James, Draco, whoever, is (supposed to be) following a classic literary redemption arc. Whereas, I would argue that none of those stories are actually about redemption. They are about development, certainly, but not necessarily redemption. There's just too much grey in there for me to buy it. Snape is probably the clearest example: He fights on the side of 'good,' but he definitely has his own agenda. I'm not sure he'd be interested in redemption, even if it was offered to him. Snape is kind of a dick, who does the right thing for his own reasons. Sirius and James are, in that respect, very similar to him -- which is probably part of why they hated each other so much to start with. They do seem to have matured in ways he didn't, but we also don't get enough of any of their motivations in the text to say that with certainty.
I would agree, though it wouldn't also surprise me to see Snape die defending Harry, as both James and Sirius (and Lily) did.
Which, of course, ties into your other point - that Sirius, James and Snape were all very similar. Sirius and Snape especially strike me as two sides of a coin. We don't have enough information on James for me to do more than guess, but I can certainly see some more human version of Mrs. Black riding her son about why he's not like that Severus Snape, while Snape is pissed off that Sirius has everything he (Snape) wants and has pissed it away to be a stupid Gryffindor.
day. Except with me it ends with eveyrone's view setting
me off for no reason whatsoever no matter what it´s about.
I admit I refused to read the james forced lily to
marry post because for one thing the firstthing I thoght was
even James aside, I don't see Lily as someone who woule let
herself into something like that. Then again these are
character´s we're all speculating about so everyone has
their faves so everyone else on the six thousands of other
sides will feel like the others have an idealized-idolized view
so it wot´t go anywhere.
And here I'll stop because I think I've done the wrongest
runonsentense in ages )and believe me, I wanted to add
toher one inbetween brackets).
It's just the penseive thing and the prank that made allthat
discussion come up and as I said to one of my friends, I almostt
wish those two scenes weren't in the books at all. It makes
people go from psyco/analysis of everyone involved to
sexual analysis of all the tention within. )eh, excuse me. I thin k iread afew too many POA reviews-parodies.'
So it´s probably on both sides. and if it comes to the sirius/james vs Snape thing I´ve hardl yseen anyoen pick up on the lien that both of them were wrong andboth of the mhad part in it.
As for that whole "James is evil!" argument... ::stares:: I think some people are imposing themselves on JKR a whole lot too much. I mean, come on, she's the person who thinks "Either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives." is a good prophecy and responded to the idea of Draco having depth by saying "He's not Tom Felton" like her character was so two demensional as to not deserve any credit for having potential. Not to be mean, or anything, she's a fun writer, but she's not exactly a person who's into exploring the depths of the human psyche, a lot of what we see is what we get, with her. T_T;;
We now return you to your regularly scheduled rant.
NM
I still don't see anything I said as mean or hurtful. I took care not to point fingers at any one person, just at a fannish mindset I find annoying. Hence my acknowledgement that the original post that set off my post was made tongue-in-cheek.
Again, mileage varies.
See, if you believe that James did force Lily, then you miss out on the emotional impact of Harry's actually considering the possibility that that might be true. For me, that was one of the most interesting character moments in the book, because you really feel for Harry in his sense of utter betrayal and dislocation, while at the same time you can't help but be aware of the unreliability of his POV. (Or at least I thought you couldn't... *g*)
Because Harry's POV in this sequence really does suffer from some serious blind spots: most notably, his righteous shock and indignation at discovering his father's humiliation of Snape is remarkably untempered by awareness of or repentance for his own--far creepier, though admittedly less public--violation of the man's privacy. If teenage!James had been revealed as an inveterate snoop rather than a bully, would Harry have been quite so appalled? ;-)
*
I think I remember thinking of Remus and Sirius' reactions that they didn't seem like they couldn't explain it at all, it was just that you don't explain that sort of thing to Lily's 15-year-old son. "Oh, she didn't really HATE James..." means, "Well, she hated him because she also fancied him and so she yelled at him...until they started doing it. Then they were all over each other."
It seems to me that that's what they would have had to have described to Harry--that in seventh year they couldn't keep their hands off each other and the school could finally stop yelling, "Just shag already!"
*
Thanks!
No, no, the plot of every Snape romance fic ever is that they discover he's snarky and intelligent and once that happens it turns out he's actually hot.
I once commented to ceciliaregent that for a guy who's described as sallow-skinned, greasy-haired git with yellow teeth, Snape gets a hell of a lot of play.
(It so happens that I like Snape, but not at the expense of James and Sirius.)
See, I know ugly people get laid all the time. It's just when they're unattractive physically and nasty personality-wise that I don't get it.
In my world, Snape has no sex. Not with anyone I like, anyway. Except Bellatrix. Because who doesn't? *g*
Where did you find these people? LOL!
I love the one who gets all huffy and storms off because you're not taking her assesments of Harry Potter characters seriously enough.
*dies*
How DARE you be sarcastic! *bitch slaps*
*runs back to making Wedding Programs*
-Bree
Dude, they find *me*!
How DARE you be sarcastic! *bitch slaps*
Hey! And ow. and hey!
We all would, that's the thing.